Thread: The never-ending debate

Originally Posted by Beamo

Erin, come play X-wing with us!

No! Come back to Malifaux!

First off, Todd - sorry for conflating campaign critiques with other stuff. I stated some of my issues with that in the msg I sent you.

Second, thanks to those who sent msgs. Malifaux is the best, will try to make Wednesdays work asap Dimitri. And you got me Brandon - let me know where and when on the x wing. And a few others, you got my replies. Thanks for asking.

Last, yeah I am taking a break. Just add my name to the long list of people who don't come to the forum or Thursday night 40k anymore because people can't learn to disagree respectfully. Who haven't figured out that in the hobby/heavy thing - no one gets to be right, because it is all an opinion and the community (here and in aggregate) would be better off if people would accept differences of opinions aren't horrible things, but rather useful for keeping life from being dull. I will never understand why people seem to have such difficulty expressing theirs in meaningful words - I suppose 'you're dumb' is easier, but it isn't terribly useful. If people had spent as much time trying to speak and listen well, then I am certain the for the most part above-average-intelligence of the whole could figure out how to accommodate more, and exclude less.

But I have made that argument for nearly two years, and I gotta admit it seems my certainty doesn't appear to be worth much. It is a shame.

Though I am glad that I got to spend the afternoon with some great people I wish I saw more often - I don't care what game it is, the people matter to me most, so today was really great because I had some fun playing RK with cool dudes.

And just to be crystal clear, not everybody has said something to cause someone else injury. But don't think that lets you off the hook. The apathy is just as destructive. Every time someone walks away, by not bothering to say "Hey, we miss you" is an opportunity where you could have made things better and chose not to.

I truly do hope everyone has fun in the rest of the campaign.

Originally Posted by CRP

I'm sorry to see you go Erin. But, I'm sure I will see you around the store.

I'd like to address something, though. People get involved with a hobby because they have a passion for that hobby. When that passion dwindles for whatever reason, that person usually finds a new hobby, takes a break, or starts a new project related to their hobby. That is just the way hobbies work. Some people that leave never come back, some return with a renewed passion for the hobby. It doesn't mean those people are no longer friends and most would be welcomed back with open arms at anytime.....and they know it or should. There is no reason to chase after those people that have left saying "Wait Comeback! We need you!" like a jilted lover. We are all adults for the most part and can make a decision as simple as whether or not to play toy soldiers. 40K is not a cult, it is a hobby. Some of us become really good friends, some are even like family. So, we have to respect our friend's decisions. Even if we don't like those decisions. I really don't think it is about apathy but, respect.

I think we have a solid community here. It is not toxic, at least no more toxic than any other community I have ever seen. I have seen other 40K groups tear each other apart until there are hardly any players left. I have seen racing groups with more drama than daytime TV. I have seen civic organizations accomplish nothing but raising each other's blood pressure. If something involves a group of people there will be drama. Collectively, the 40K community in Austin continues to have a strong 40K night, we help each other with list building, models, etc., we have strong tournament turnouts, and we have had some great road trips and more of those to come.

That is just my two cents.

Cook, you know I like you as a person. My passion hasn't dwindled - my patience has. From talking to at least a dozen other people who have moved on, decisions to do so aren't primarily gamer adhd, it is because people get tired of being called out for not having painted models, for running a faction people just love to bitch about, for fielding an army that violates someone else's notion of fluff-appropriate, for running things that some set has arbitrarily labelled OP. Basically, a lot of people are given sh*t in the group a lot of the time, and the 'people need to stop acting like little girls' retort is not only not helpful, it is one I personally just don't wish to hear ever again.

If there is a desire to make a space for a hobby/fluffy event, then I see no reason why that can't be done. Just write the criteria in such a way that would discourage all perceived d-bags from wanting to participate. And give it a different name than 'tournament' because that is apparently code-word in geekspeak for bringing out the balls-hard crap. Then create another space for the d*ck-kicker lists/players as well.

But the constant giving of sh*t to people for playing the armies they want - maybe one or two people deserve that (and the people I am thinking of deserve to be treated badly anyway just for being terrible sacks of excrement in all manner of human interaction) - the rest are fun, friendly people who are totally open to changing things up if anyone were willing to have a respectful discussion with them. But nobody bothers having that talk in that manner. Instead we get gossip, complaining, and a general unwillingness to sit down and have adult conversations. I don't think I can be any more clear than I said first - disagreements aren't the problem, those are a natural result of human economy. It is the utter lack of decorum and respect that I find appalling.

I get that you say it is respectful to give people their space, but in the many many messages I have sent to people who don't come in, not one has ever indicated that I was in any way intruding. And most have been more than willing to explain to me exactly why they dropped 40k, which was really the reason for me saying anything at all.

Also, as far as the campaign issues I have: allowing the ports to give planet wide striking ability is a huge mistake. It makes it impossible to determine which areas need strengthening and basically makes any movement across land a moot consideration. Just grab a port and strike wherever you like. And by turn 4, any group that holds the shield/port combos will have a lock on that. There will be absolutely zero reason to try and move on those targets in turn 5/6. So groups put their strongest player to the task of attacking and defending those targets for the next two turns then move on to grabbing as much land area as they can in the final two, and since the have unlimited reach, they get to control the entire map. I see this as being tremendously unbalanced and likely it will go in Chaos's favor as they have had the best positioning. Had I been aware of the change, Xenos would have had a completely different list of targets turn2 in anticipation of the above. Plus the team captain thing, which I never wanted, was too much effort with too little feedback. So the decisions I spent a lot of time considering for turn2 and had to make on behalf of my team turned out to be bad based on lack of information regarding these changes. It made me more tired and unable to enjoy the campaign. Add that on top of the general frustration I feel knowing that to play games with several people I like will mean having to travel all over town to different stores, and yeah, just too much aggravation would be involved in continuing this thing.

Originally Posted by morella888

Cook, you know I like you as a person. My passion hasn't dwindled - my patience has. From talking to at least a dozen other people who have moved on, decisions to do so aren't primarily gamer adhd, it is because people get tired of being called out for not having painted models, for running a faction people just love to bitch about, for fielding an army that violates someone else's notion of fluff-appropriate, for running things that some set has arbitrarily labelled OP. Basically, a lot of people are given sh*t in the group a lot of the time, and the 'people need to stop acting like little girls' retort is not only not helpful, it is one I personally just don't wish to hear ever again.

If there is a desire to make a space for a hobby/fluffy event, then I see no reason why that can't be done. Just write the criteria in such a way that would discourage all perceived d-bags from wanting to participate. And give it a different name than 'tournament' because that is apparently code-word in geekspeak for bringing out the balls-hard crap. Then create another space for the d*ck-kicker lists/players as well.

But the constant giving of sh*t to people for playing the armies they want - maybe one or two people deserve that (and the people I am thinking of deserve to be treated badly anyway just for being terrible sacks of excrement in all manner of human interaction) - the rest are fun, friendly people who are totally open to changing things up if anyone were willing to have a respectful discussion with them. But nobody bothers having that talk in that manner. Instead we get gossip, complaining, and a general unwillingness to sit down and have adult conversations. I don't think I can be any more clear than I said first - disagreements aren't the problem, those are a natural result of human economy. It is the utter lack of decorum and respect that I find appalling.

I get that you say it is respectful to give people their space, but in the many many messages I have sent to people who don't come in, not one has ever indicated that I was in any way intruding. And most have been more than willing to explain to me exactly why they dropped 40k, which was really the reason for me saying anything at all.

Also, as far as the campaign issues I have: allowing the ports to give planet wide striking ability is a huge mistake. It makes it impossible to determine which areas need strengthening and basically makes any movement across land a moot consideration. Just grab a port and strike wherever you like. And by turn 4, any group that holds the shield/port combos will have a lock on that. There will be absolutely zero reason to try and move on those targets in turn 5/6. So groups put their strongest player to the task of attacking and defending those targets for the next two turns then move on to grabbing as much land area as they can in the final two, and since the have unlimited reach, they get to control the entire map. I see this as being tremendously unbalanced and likely it will go in Chaos's favor as they have had the best positioning. Had I been aware of the change, Xenos would have had a completely different list of targets turn2 in anticipation of the above. Plus the team captain thing, which I never wanted, was too much effort with too little feedback. So the decisions I spent a lot of time considering for turn2 and had to make on behalf of my team turned out to be bad based on lack of information regarding these changes. It made me more tired and unable to enjoy the campaign. Add that on top of the general frustration I feel knowing that to play games with several people I like will mean having to travel all over town to different stores, and yeah, just too much aggravation would be involved in continuing this thing.

even after reading this i still see a lot of generalizations, none of which personally affected you, and still have no idea why you quit the campaign last friday.

noone has ever called you out for running a faction people didnt like and noone has called you out for running unpainted models.

we do have our hobby/fluffy event and it is the campaign.

to be honest it sounds like people have bent your ear and turned you against the thursday night crew at dragons lair and also your late night crew at breakfast at jim's and taken away your joy for something i thought you were enjoying, especially given your recent bump in attendance when compared with a year ago.

just to think i talked you in to going down to san antonio, riding in a car with us and having a generally good time has somehow been characterized in the way you responded in your post i have to assume you have been brainwashed, ear bent, or generally brought over to the other side of folks for whatever reason don't like to come up on thursday nights and like to characterize those up there in a negative light.

i am baffled as to why you left and thought you were really hitting your stride as part of the community in taking a leadership role in the campaign and the thursday night crew.

Nobody bends my ear - but I do listen to all sides. to quote Treebead "i am on nobody's side because nobody is on my side". I have no animosity towards anyone, as far as I am concerned, y'all are still my 'friends' as far as we share a limited set of interests and can get along well enough in that environment. But none of you are truly my friends, in the sense I use the word. For that I have Gwendolyn and a few others who have gone above and beyond in certain instances. I wish it were different, but having been going through this for years, it seems to be at a plateau.

No, nothing has been said against me personally, but that hardly matters. If we can only feel disgust when we are personally attacked then that allows for a whole lot of atrocity to be committed. As I said previously, it is the apathy I find most distressing. And the fact that a lot of my favorite people just aren't around anymore (which doesn't mean anything at all against those who are still here)