Thread: So, what are the Issues the 40k Community needs to Address?

And what are the Questions that need to be answered?
What are the Important Things that require a broad research effort to uncover Players' Opinions, Attitudes, & Behaviors?

Note: These Big Questions will reappear in a new and improved form soon. But if you are just starting this (and where have you been? and why would you do that anyway? it will take a long time. and most of the thread really is discussion of pie anyway.)

But Will really summed up the spirit of the thread with the following quote, so will immortalize it here:

Originally Posted by Wiley One

I think the problem is that I left the community......

In all seriousness though, is there anyone manning the post of, new person enters and gets attacked with humor and introduction? Just saying..... I know when I first started back in the BFG days it was tough for me even though I had an in through Thomas and Brandon S., and even with having my loud-mouthed, boisterous, comedic, often inapproprite self, it was still an uphill battle. I have REALLY gotten away from anything competitive as of late. That is to say the competitive mind-set, not a competitive list or desire to win a particular game. I play a pretty even mix of lists now, both fluffy and hard. I TO up here in Dallas for our local events and we don't really have similar issues. It may be important for a few of the more experienced and "older" gamers or players to take the reigns on this one. I ALWAYS make sure to engage any new people, even on a stop in to "check it out". Additionally, I am always aware that without new players there will be no community, eventually.

I think most of the issues lie in leadership. This is in NO way targeted at Chris because he is domineering the tournies, nor is it targeted at John Cook for being the oldest (age and time playing), nor at Splug for being the most Presidential, or any other members of the Austin scene. I have been away from Austin long enough to look at it from the outside in, but not long enough that I forgot how great it was. Seems to me things just lack the right people doing the right things to nurture and grow new and existing members. I think a lot of great ideas have been formulated and if implemented will have a positive impact to push things in the right direction. It will only really take a few of the right people to step-up and make the small differences to see a drastic improvement to ALL aspects of the community as a whole. Who that might be, individually, or as a group I do not know. All I can say is I try to be that way here and it seems to have a positive effect on the places I play and hang out. I am by no means the only one up here either, but I prefer to contribute instead of break down. When I do vent it is to a select person or two...... Just thoughts.

My old, much less elegant introduction follows:


I have decided to break this into 2 parts. This first part is sincere and should not offend anyone. The second is not so nice and may offend a few or more. Take any of it as you like. I have got no skin in this game.

In that other thread (and several others from the past two months), everybody's arguing about the minutia, but there doesn't seem to be any clear idea about what it is all meant to achieve. If it is just about creating a once a month event where newer.or fluffier players can show up, be competitive, but avoid crazy hardcore opposing armies, then that seems like an exceedingly narrow goal to me.

So to me it seems the necessary questions and issues might include:
How do you prefer to interact with other members of the community? (Meaning casual, competitive, hobby, etc.)
What kind of organized events would you want to participate in?
What behaviors (include or separate to address army lists) detract from your enjoyment of or choice to participate in an event?

There's no doubt many more questions that could be asked, either specific to various negative play experiences or more general. But it is clear that some effort needs to be made to bring the larger population of 40k players into any discussion that potentially alter the nature of the community, its norms and mores.

Had suggested a few elsewhere, but will recap some thoughts on data collection:
*surveys, either online or distributed in some way at the stores
*town hall type discussions with generally accepted rules of polite discourse
*just face-to-face interviews with people you see playing the game

I would like to see you all tackle these meta issues first. I feel the process itself could do a lot to enhance the community dynamic as well as bring some closure to, as Beamo so eloquently puts it, this neverending circle jerk.


Which segues nicely into my second, not at all polite observation and query:

I've said this in conversation with several of you, and the consensus is I am just naive or something, but I don't really get why it is so difficult to adapt to a cultural more of "Don't BAD" (that's an acronym I will use. I am confident you can all figure it out). Because my thought is, everybody knows when they are BAD. It is generally pretty simple, if you have to ask yourself."Am I BAD?" the answer is probably yes. Even people who supposedly 'don't think they are', are often just trying to see how far they can push the boundary to where they are almost, but not quite, BAD.

So it seems to me, a lot of the arguing and side-taking and generally excessive level of rancor suffusing all these discussions does more to harm the community than the few people who show up determined to BAD. And it would seem a pretty easy solution to stop a handful of people from BAD. Call them on it and tell them to Stop BAD.

I said there was a query here, so I guess it is this: Why the hell is it so unthinkable that a group of supposedly mature adults,who mostly I am sure have to moderate their behavior and learn to compromise in their work and home life, can not be expected and trusted to exhibit that same sort of social cognizance in a competitive environment?

And yeah this is all mostly serious, and I genuinely am interested in the suggestions and opinions that may arise here. And why doesn't everybody also use this thread to simultaneously practice polite discourse.

Love, your testosterone challenged friend

Disclaimer: I don't play 40k (but I do care about healthy gaming communities).

I saw this comment above, and it struck me as interesting:

Originally Posted by Minus67

... who have been running the DL tourneys since Larry left DL.

Just curious: I really don't recall this much discussion on similar issues back in those days. Is it because Larry was a DL employee and not an active tournament participant (I'm assuming)? And/or is it that, with actively-playing volunteer TOs (who, imo, would have to be saints and/or masochists to do this), people feel more comfortable with open criticism? Or am I just completely remembering the situation incorrectly?

Originally Posted by Warpaint

Disclaimer: I don't play 40k (but I do care about healthy gaming communities).

I saw this comment above, and it struck me as interesting:



Just curious: I really don't recall this much discussion on similar issues back in those days. Is it because Larry was a DL employee and not an active tournament participant (I'm assuming)? And/or is it that, with actively-playing volunteer TOs (who, imo, would have to be saints and/or masochists to do this), people feel more comfortable with open criticism? Or am I just completely remembering the situation incorrectly?

As an employee Larry was limited in what he could enforce. The independent TO's have been less constrained, allowing changes to be made. Another thing is that GW has went bonkers with the rules the past year or so.

Thanks for the detailed response. I was aware of part of the history but not all, and appreciate that the TO's are in an impossible position, because as the saying goes, you can't please everyone. I had said to someone earlier today:

Communities need leaders, not a dictator, and a healthy community won't stand for one. (note, not trying to throw anyone under that label, period, at all)

I think your points raise that problem: these decisions are far too contentious and the position far too stressful to be shouldered without some sort of support, specifically for the tournaments. I guess the problem with that is trying, as a group of interested persons, to create such a system of support that doesn't seem oppressive to the TO, but that is useful for delegating responsibilities and gathering information. And note, leaders (plural) have far greater responsibilities than bookkeeping and rulemaking. It is a position that indicates the will to serve and guide others, to set an example, and to teach.

One thing I have noticed, and as a researcher it drives me crazy, is that while anecdotal evidence is necessary, there doesn't seem to be any system to organize the data, which prevents any sort of useful analysis being done. Which is why I suggested a few things prior.

Also, just from my POV, all the attention seems bent on fixing the tournaments. While I get these events are important to a lot of you, I would really like to see more discussion given to other types of events that might allow a broader base to be included in the community as well.

I know a lot of you are invested in this community from effort expended over many years. I would hope that such concern extends to the notion that your contributions to building a community extend beyond your personal friendships to encompass, and really you are creating a legacy of sorts by helping to grow, a broad and diverse player base.

Originally Posted by morella888

Also, just from my POV, all the attention seems bent on fixing the tournaments. While I get these events are important to a lot of you, I would really like to see more discussion given to other types of events that might allow a broader base to be included in the community as well.

Tournament rules tend to trickle into other games as sort of a default rule set. This includes even having the point value that is most likely to be played on a given Thursday being either the point value from the previous tournament, or the one from the next tournament. People will deviate from that point for a random afternoon game of course, but that's kind of the mutually-accepted starting point to migrate from.