Blue Table Painting

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Originally Posted by The Dude

So $600 for a single model is a fair price to you?

The sculptors are the artists, we just color it in.

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That's a pretty ignorant oversimplification you've got there...

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Originally Posted by The Dude

So $600 for a single model is a fair price to you?

The sculptors are the artists, we just color it in.

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Absolutely it is fair. Most painters that are better than me are charging $1000-$1500 a figure. High quality paint jobs require a minimum of 40 hours work. $600 means $15 an hour. I make more driving a desk and doing less work. Now for tabletop jobs done in a few hours no, $600 is unreasonable, but also you can't expect Golden Daemon quality either. $50 - $100 is reasonable for a decent quality tabletop characters and $100-$150 is fair for 10 men sans command/special models.

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Originally Posted by Beamo

That's a pretty ignorant oversimplification you've got there...

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Historically there has always been a debate as to what constitutes art, with the 20th century consensus being that almost anything is (hence performance art and things like the exhibitions of found objects). In that sense, miniature painting is art. Artistic choices are certainly made, but barring severe alteration of the original model (like many of your pieces) most of those choices are dictated by the choices already made by the sculptor. In general, a miniature painter is a collaborator, at best (and one with less input than the sculptor most of the time).
Just my perspective, care to elaborate on yours, or you just want to insult me more?

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Originally Posted by Psyberwolfe

Absolutely it is fair. Most painters that are better than me are charging $1000-$1500 a figure. High quality paint jobs require a minimum of 40 hours work. $600 means $15 an hour. I make more driving a desk and doing less work. Now for tabletop jobs done in a few hours no, $600 is unreasonable, but also you can't expect Golden Daemon quality either. $50 - $100 is reasonable for a decent quality tabletop characters and $100-$150 is fair for 10 men sans command/special models.

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I think it is a mistake to think about commission painting in hourly terms (disagree with Thomas there for sure). I can't think about it in hourly terms because it would be impossible to quantify, I am never just painting one thing or just painting, period. You make more per hour at a desk, but do you get as much enjoyment out of it? If you do, then you probably just shouldn't do commissions.

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Originally Posted by The Dude

Historically there has always been a debate as to what constitutes art, with the 20th century consensus being that almost anything is (hence performance art and things like the exhibitions of found objects). In that sense, miniature painting is art. Artistic choices are certainly made, but barring severe alteration of the original model (like many of your pieces) most of those choices are dictated by the choices already made by the sculptor. In general, a miniature painter is a collaborator, at best (and one with less input than the sculptor most of the time).
Just my perspective, care to elaborate on yours, or you just want to insult me more?

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Saying that someone is a collaborator on a piece does not make their contribution not art, nor does it make the piece as a whole not art. You're basically asserting that when someone paints a model (assuming stock in this case) they are just doing a paint-by-numbers routine as dictated by the sculptor, and therefor are not an artist, yet the model comes grey (or whatever unprimed color) and is actually subject entirely to the whims of the painter, in spite of any pre-conceived notions laid down by a How to Paint Space Marines guide or what have you.

That's cool if you want to feel insulted; you did as much by the generalization that someone isn't an artist based on the canvas they paint on, all I did was call it out as ignorant.

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Originally Posted by The Dude

I think it is a mistake to think about commission painting in hourly terms (disagree with Thomas there for sure). I can't think about it in hourly terms because it would be impossible to quantify, I am never just painting one thing or just painting, period. You make more per hour at a desk, but do you get as much enjoyment out of it? If you do, then you probably just shouldn't do commissions.

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You must think of it in hourly terms if you're getting paid for it. When I'm being paid by others I think in hourly terms because it doesn't pay the bills and I'm doing it in my off hours. You see you're not paying me for my enjoyment; you are paying me for my time. Time you get to spend on other tasks. Time I'm not spending on my projects, wife, and kid.

I have set a value for my time. The fact someone values my time as worth less is frankly insulting. I'm not asking for your agreement, but I am asking that understand my point that I have set a value on my time. You may value my time spent as less, but I don't and my opinion on how I spend my time and the value I place on it is the only opinion that matters.

Finally I absolutely disagree with your art point. I am creating with my brush illusions: illusions of light, shadow, and texture. I'm painting decorative elements, and bringing the figure to life. I'm setting scenes and telling stories.

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Originally Posted by Psyberwolfe

You see you're not paying me for my enjoyment; you are paying me for my time.

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I think what he's saying is that you should be paid for your final product, not your time. Whether or not that time spent is worthwhile to you depends on your own calculations.

Speaking of "art", George Lucas is the World's Greatest Living Artist.

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Originally Posted by RealGenius

Speaking of "art", George Lucas is the World's Greatest Living Artist.

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I disagree, but like her, my opinion is my opinion. I think too much of what Lucas gets credit for as being great are actually from other contributors for him to be the greatest living artist. But is he an artist? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Beamo

Saying that someone is a collaborator on a piece does not make their contribution not art, nor does it make the piece as a whole not art. You're basically asserting that when someone paints a model (assuming stock in this case) they are just doing a paint-by-numbers routine as dictated by the sculptor, and therefor are not an artist, yet the model comes grey (or whatever unprimed color) and is actually subject entirely to the whims of the painter, in spite of any pre-conceived notions laid down by a How to Paint Space Marines guide or what have you.

That's cool if you want to feel insulted; you did as much by the generalization that someone isn't an artist based on the canvas they paint on, all I did was call it out as ignorant.

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My original statement was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek sorry if I offended your artistic sensibilities, that makes your initial response more understandable. A miniature is more than a canvas though, don't you think? Isn't that assertion insulting to the skills of the sculptor? Could you do what you do without the sculptors initial effort? Should you be compensated more for your part of the finished product than the sculptor was? I am not ignorant and this discussion is not so cut and dry as you seem to think. But it is interesting, thanks for the conversation. I am not trying to convince you of anything, to be clear.

And Jim, thank you, that is exactly what I meant.

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Originally Posted by Psyberwolfe

I am creating with my brush illusions: illusions of light, shadow, and texture. I'm painting decorative elements, and bringing the figure to life. I'm setting scenes and telling stories.

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This is why you may be lacking business, not the plethora of cheap painting services. You are not offering what most buyers want, which is simply a painted figure.